Christian Nationalism Unpacked // Ricecast

On this episode of The Ricecast, Pastors Willy Rice and Dan Pigsley catch up on the past week, talk about CCHS football, and unpack the term "Christian Nationalist."

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Transcript

Dan: 0:00

Welcome to the RiceCast. I'm your host, Dan Pigsley. Sitting across from me is my friend and yours, Pastor Willy Rice. Pastor, how are you doing today?

Willy: 0:07

Doing great, Dan. It's good to good to be back on the podcast today.

Dan: 0:09

It is. It's good. Last week was awesome having your son here. That was a lot of fun.

Willy: 0:12

Oh, yeah, it was uh that's right. Stephen was here and uh did a great job. We're so proud of him and uh all of our kids. Amanda, who works here at our high school, and her husband are uh over in the winter garden area, but we're also proud of Steven, our youngest, who's pastoring down there in Gens Beach. It was great to have him on the podcast last week.

Dan: 0:29

He did a fantastic job, too. I was like, you know, he was you were like, hey, you want to do this? He's like, I don't know if I want to get it. It was the last minute. It was very last minute. Yeah, we just threw it up there. It was awesome. But it was good to have him. Good to be back here on the podcast.

Willy: 0:39

Now all my kids though want a shot. Amanda wants a shot. Yeah, Anna, I don't know, maybe she wants a shot. Uh, but uh who knows? Maybe we'll do that sometime.

Dan: 0:47

I'd that'd be awesome. Amanda could come in and host one.

Willy: 0:51

Amanda does some at the school and she's fantastic, of course. Great. Yeah.

Dan: 0:54

Um, actually was at CCHS Capital today and I saw her. They're a very incredible thing you have going on we have going on over there.

Willy: 1:00

Oh, unbelievable. Yeah.

Dan: 1:01

It's incredible. So we'll talk about that in the future.

Willy: 1:03

Yeah, we've got a big anniversary coming up, so we're gonna do some uh podcasts on that here the later this month, what God's doing at CCHS.

Dan: 1:10

So anything uh going on this week that you just we had a great staff retreat. I don't know if people love to hear about it. I know you don't think so, but people love to hear about what we've done. Oh, do they really?

Willy: 1:17

Yeah, maybe we should give them a behind the scenes view. Yeah, twice a year we try to have a kind of a multi-day thing. Uh in the spring we go off site, in the fall we usually stay closed. So we went up to our East Lake campus this time and uh just spent two long days, Monday and Tuesday. And they are, as you you will attest, uh a lot of work. We do a lot of work, a lot of meetings, but we talk about a lot of very important things and uh pray and strategize and try to see what the Lord is saying to us. And so um we've come we're coming off two very, very busy days there.

Dan: 1:48

That's good. And it's very rare we get everybody in the room at one time.

Willy: 1:51

Yeah, it's hard. You know, you reach a certain point, it that's it becomes like a uh, you know, uh somebody said the complexity is like a football team compared to like in a basketball team, everybody touches the ball, everybody's kind of practicing together every day. But in football teams you have all these different units, and so sometimes you're not working together as much. This group's over here, this group's over here. And that can be that way in a large church staff. And uh so you really have to be intentional about the times when you get everybody in the room and say, okay, these are the things we need everybody to be aware of, and these are the things going on, and and that's challenging to get everybody's input, but um uh anyway, it's a good day, and we have a great team, as you as you will say, a great group of people, men and women, uh, working in that group. So grateful for our staff and for those who pray for us who don't know necessarily what's going on every day. Uh but our people are working really hard, I can tell you that.

Dan: 2:42

It's it was fantastic, and you you brought it up, so I just want to say the Gators didn't lose this past weekend.

Willy: 2:47

They did not lose because they did not play.

Dan: 2:49

And uh we didn't have to say that part. Fortuitous, fortuitous.

Willy: 2:53

I'm not sure how many more weeks we'll get to say that, Dan. Uh we didn't play. We're obviously not doing very good, uh, but um it is what it is. We just have to go through it.

Dan: 3:03

Um, so today I wanted to. If if you guys don't know, Pastor Willie uh has an ex account, a Twitter account, whatever you want to call it.

Willy: 3:10

And whatever you want to call it. I don't know. Yeah, you can't.

Dan: 3:12

I just call it my source of entertainment a lot of the time. Entertainment. That's what it is. But I wanted you you tweeted something a few days ago. Obviously, we've kind of spent the past few podcasts talking about the Charlie Kirk situation and everything that's kind of led up to that and that's happened after that. And you tweeted something um last Sunday, the day of his memorial service. Okay, uh, and you said uh is this Christian nationalism? If so, sign me up. Yeah. I know you very well, and a lot of people know you very well, but I want just to spend the next 20, 30 minutes just unpacking those words, if you don't mind.

Willy: 3:47

Yeah, yeah. Well, the term Christian nationalism, it's good to talk about this. And I don't pretend to be the expert. I haven't read every book on the subject, listen to every podcast. Um but uh so the term you the problem is when you throw a term like that out is you need to make sure that we're talking about the same thing. People can use the same vocabulary but have a different dictionary, and uh that's you know, whoever controls the language sometimes wins the argument. So uh what is Christian nationalism? That's what we should ask first. And I first heard the term a couple of years ago uh used in a pejorative fashion. Uh it was uh used uh to uh critique some people who, in the minds of the people making the critique, were being too political and too involved, and they uh it was so wow, where did that term come from? Christian nationalists. It almost sounded scary, like, ooh, is that a they meeting at you know three in the morning out in the woods somewhere, or you know, is this a group in a suite in New York? Christian nationalists. What is the term? I never I guess I just never heard the words put together like that. And so the first maybe 20 times I ever heard the term used, it was a pejorative term. It was a negative term, and it was used to attack somebody who was in the minds of the person rendering the attack too political. Uh you're being too political, typically too right wing, too conservative. You're a Christian nationalist. And what has happened over the last few years is that, you know, it's funny how these words, you know, the word Christian was a pejorative term at first. And they read the book of Acts. And so sometimes these words that are used to kind of uh label people, call them names, actually sometimes people go, Well, since you mentioned it, you know, that's the kind of the way the word Christian, like little Christ, little people, little Christ people. And they were like, Well, since you mentioned it, maybe, maybe, maybe we that's a good term. We'll take it. And that's kind of the way I had heard the Christian nationalist term used. And so it there's a huge uh conversation out there in space, you know, whether it's online or among people, books, articles, so forth about that term. What do we mean when we say Christian nationalists? Because obviously, there is something that if you defined it one way, we would go, okay. And if we defined it another way, we would go, that's not what I'm trying to say. Now, maybe it's what somebody else is trying to say, but it's not what I'm trying to say. So when I watched the the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service, and I saw the cabinet members of the United States cabinet, and of course then the president came in, the vice president was there. You had the leaders of the American government, leaders in American society there, and yet you had this very uh overtly Christian service. And yes, there were political moments because Charlie Kirk, as we've talked about, part of what he did was he was a political activist. But wow, you saw, I mean, unashamedly, like, you know, we're used to these services where you kind of tiptoe around spiritual things, you know, say anything that offends anybody, and we've seen that at the National Cathedral and other places that you go, wow, I don't know if that's Christian or not. You know, some they read a verse of the Bible, but that's about all they did. Uh, in this service, it felt at times like an evangelical revival service. That's what it was called by some people. Uh, and I, by the way, the people who say evangelicalism is dead in America, I thought, wait a second.

Dan: 7:21

It's happening right now.

Willy: 7:22

Not quite so dead. You had, I mean, and I've said this, I think I said this in other podcasts. That was, those are our people. Like it wasn't um like they were the ones singing. Um that was not a Catholic service, no offense, but it wasn't Roman Catholic service, it wasn't an Anglican service. It wasn't even like high church, we go to the National Cathedral, everybody wears robes and talks, and we're not sure if that did they say anything or not. I'm not sure. Maybe they mentioned Jesus. No, no. It was like an evangelical, you know, service. Uh the music, that was our music. Those are songs we sing. Most of our people, the Utagon, hey, we sing that every Sunday. We sing that all the time. Uh and uh the singers, you know, a lot of them are contemporary music artists, but worship leaders, Chris Tomlin, you know, everybody's sung Chris Tomlin's song, Brandon Lake, those are the people. And then when you heard people get up, I mean, we heard from evangelical pastors, you know, wasn't other kinds of pastors. It was evangelical. I mean, his pastor got up, gave a gospel, basically message and invitation. Um, his pastor. And then we heard members of the cabinet give up and give gospel invitations that were better than you'd have in a lot of churches. I mean, they talked about Jesus, the cross, repentance, faith, and I rejoiced. Not everybody did rejoice. Uh, and we could talk about that. But I did rejoice, and that's the that was the background of my argument. If this is what Christian nationalism is, sign me up. So, what do we mean by that?

Dan: 8:50

That and I want to just, yeah, I want to go back just a few paragraphs a little bit uh from what you said. You said there's really it's who controls the vocabulary who's gonna win the argument. And so you mentioned there are two definitions for Christian nationalism. One it seems like you would agree with, and another one you wouldn't.

Willy: 9:06

So can you give me a question? Yeah, let's let's bifurcate between what would be a healthy understanding of Christian nationalism and what would be an unhealthy nationalism. So the term, what there's nothing wrong with either term, right? Christian, obviously, and I don't typically like Christian be and to be the adjective modifying the noun. I I, you know, I'm a Christian Christian, I'm a Jesus Christian, I'm a biblical Christian. I might use the term Baptist Christian, you know, if you have if you're forcing me into a denominational, and I do. It's not a I welcome that term. But I don't typically like, you know, to thow it because I don't want to mess it up. But Christian, um obviously we know what that means, a follower of Jesus Christ who believes the gospel, who is a follower of Christ. Nationalist. Well, there what do you mean by nationalist? Well, nationalist is somebody who loves his nation, somebody who is caring about his nation, speaking for his nation, uh showing uh affinity for his nation, and and the negative of the term is your nation as opposed to other nations. But even that's not really a negative. Because as we've talked about, people should care about their home in a way that is different than they care about other things. You care about your home in a way that is different than you care about other people's homes. Uh we care about the state of Florida because I live here. I care about who wins the governor gubernatorial office in Florida, right? I care about who the governor is. I don't even know who the governor is of Idaho, let's say. I don't know. I mean, I love people in Idaho, but I live here, so I care about my community. I care about the city of Clearwater because I live in, you know, our we have a church. I actually live outside the city limits, but our church is in Clearwater and mayor comes to our church. I care about our city. That doesn't mean I care less uh about other cities. It means I care differently about my home. To love our neighbor as ourselves doesn't mean we don't love ourselves. It is the assumption that we love and care for ourselves and our home, and we are to extend that love out. I think you love others better when you love your home well. You can love other families better if you lead your family well. So it's not I love one or the other or I love them the same way. No, uh you care for others because you take care of your yourself and your family in your home. So I make no apology for caring about our country. I think we should. In fact, I would say it's scriptural. You can go into the book of Jeremiah where the Jewish people were commanded even when they lived in Babylon to pray for the peace of the city. Babylon. It wasn't even a Jewish city. They didn't even have any authority over who ruled Babylon. But the prophet Jeremiah said, Hey, that's where you're living. If it goes well for that city, it'll go well for you. Pray for peace there. That's one example. But I I So we do care about our home. We care about America. So I don't make any apologies for caring about America and wanting America to succeed, to be strong, to be free. I think that's the best thing for the other nations in the world, by the way. So we could unpack the term nationalist, but to give it a negative connotation to me is grossly unfair. So what are the what are the positive negatives? The negative would be this: if someone were using the term, and this is what they're kind of people who use the term pejoratively are accusing us of, if you are saying that you believe that you can use a political means to achieve a spiritual end or a kingdom end, or even that the political government is the primary means to achieve some spiritual or gospel end, you you are on dangerous ground. You could be making a mistake there. For instance, the Christian nationalist who believes that it is the role of the government to enforce or promote, um, the word promote, we could talk about that, promote or enforce or demand Christian adherence. We believe, we who believe in separation of the church and state would would feel a little queasy about that. We would say, look, you need to understand that the government has a role and the church has a role. The separation of the church and state, properly understood, is that the government doesn't usurp the church's role. But it's also that there is no organized sectarian church like the Southern Baptist Convention or any other one that gets to, as an organization, dominate the church. So when you if if by Christian nationalism you are saying that it should be against the law to be anything other than a Christian, or we should use the government and pass a law, everybody should go to church, or everybody should read from the Christian Standard Bible, that should be a law. Well, we would acknowledge, no, that is probably an illegitimate use of government. Government at that point would be stepping over its God-ordained role and interfering with personal conscience and private conviction, and that's not the role of the government. So if a pr if if somebody by Christian nationalism means, hey, we need to elect leaders whose job it is to preach the gospel, promote Christianity, and to enforce adherence to Christian morality or something, or Christian law, or Christian doctrine, okay, now you're in areas where all of us would go, okay, I got a problem with that. That's not the role of government. And you would be right. And I know very few people, by the way, under the banner of Christian nationalism that are saying things that extreme. Now, there may be some examples. Again, I'm not the repository of all knowledge. So I don't listen to every podcast, and I know there are some people out there who have been more provocative than others, and maybe they would be examples of where if you put it in front of us, we go, oh, that's not, I'm not, I don't agree with that. I think people should, I believe in religious freedom. Uh I believe people should have a right to choose whether they will believe or not believe, go to church or not, go to church. And I don't think the government is role is to use the law to coerce people's conscience. Don't believe that at all. And I don't think most of the people who are using the banner of Christian nationalists believe that either, by the way. But it's used pejoratively, and you need to get ready for it. It's being used pejoratively, primarily from people on the left, to say that if you speak about any government issue, ah, Christian nationalism. So let's go on the other side. What what what is a positive, like what's a very positive view of that? I would argue a positive definition of that would be that because we care about our nation and our state and our home, I want unapologetically for our government, our our education, our institutions, uh, entertainment, I wish they could all be as informed and as possible and as influenced by as possible, influenced by as much as possible, Christian thought, conviction, worldview. You know why? Because I believe God's truth is true. I believe Bible truth is true truth. So do I want a government that is influenced by Christianity? Again, let me ask this question. What's the alternative? What's the alternative? You're gonna have a worldview. You would you rather live in a communist country? Would you rather live in a pagan country? Would you rather live in a Muslim country? Now, I can love people in all those countries. We send missionaries to people. We have missionaries, I've been to Cuba, I've seen Christians, I thank God for the Christians who are in Cuba. And they're doing, by the way, vibrant churches down there. I praise God for the missionaries that are sent to Muslim countries and the churches and Christians who who live there. They have a challenge you and I don't have. But what do I want for my home and for my children and my grandchildren? I want a Christian country. What does that mean? I want a country that is influenced as much as humanly possible by Christian thought. I love it when every or many members of the cabinet get up there and think in Christian terms and adopt Christian morality and accept Christian doctrine. I think they will be better people and better leaders if they do. The problem is not we've had too much of that, the problem is we have too little of that. I want Christian, I wish Hollywood could be influenced by Christian thought, don't you? I mean, I wish our financial institutions would be influenced by Christian thought and conviction. I wish the educational institutions in America could be as influenced as possible by Christian thought, Christian convictions, Christian beliefs, because I believe they are true and I believe they work and I believe they create human flourishing. So when somebody, one author said, hey, the a few years ago, uh a lot of people might know uh who this is, who said, hey, the um cultural Christianity is dead. This was said about circa 2015. Cultural Christianity is dead and good riddance. At first I thought I knew what he was saying, and I thought, okay, maybe he's talking about lukewarm, watered down Christianity is dead, good, now we can replace it with the real thing and all that. But the more I thought about the term, the less I agree with it, and I don't agree with it. It it is not good or right to celebrate the demise of cultural Christianity, and I'll tell you why. Because something's gonna replace it. And what isn't what's gonna replace it is not gonna be good. It's not gonna be good. It's gonna be paganism, communism, or Islam or something. There's gonna be a worldview system that'll replace it, and it won't be good. Will cultural Christianity save anybody? No. You know that, Dan, I know that. What saves people? Jesus saves people. The death of Jesus on the cross when we repent of our sin and believe. So we know, yeah, in America, there's been a lot of people that had patriotism, you know, put $5 in the plate at church and, you know, say the Lord's Prayer before they run on the football field cursing the rest of the night, you know, and all that. Uh oh, that's cultural Christianity. And people say, that's not gonna save anybody. No, it's not gonna save anybody, but it might save a country. It makes a country a better place to live. And here's what I would say as pastors, it's the better place, I should say, the easier place, the more fruitful place to do evangelism. Where do you think it's gonna be easier to do evangelism? In a country that has been influenced as much as possible by Christian thought? Or do you think it's gonna be easier to do evangelism in Afghanistan or a communist country? Um Do you think it's gonna be easier to do evangelism right now in a red state or a blue state? Let's just get down to it. I heard Josh Howard saying this the other day. Where should we do evangelism? Everywhere. Who should we try to bring to Christ? Everybody. So let us say that. But where do you think it's gonna be easier to do evangelism? In um let's, you know, in in Clearwater or in Portland, Oregon right now. Um we should do it in both. We should have church planners in both. Praise God, let's go. But where is it gonna be easier to do evangelism? I would suggest in a culture that has been influenced as much as possible by Christian truth. Because then it will be easy to step in and go, okay, you've heard this. Now let me help you understand the gospel. So Christian national, that's what I was saying in that service. If that's what it is, that we have government leaders who are talking about Jesus, sign me up for that. Where the nation gathers to mourn, and over a hundred million people, maybe hundreds of millions of people are watching, and they hear the gospel repeated over and over again, sign me up for that. Does that mean everybody there is a Christian? Does that mean we don't need to do evangelism among that group? Does that mean that's the same thing as church? No, I didn't mean to say any of that. What I said is that's a good thing, and it's a much better thing than if I looked and saw all the American leaders um and they're all communist or they're all atheist or they all have a belief system that is not true. I will I will sign up for the first one.

Dan: 21:15

Well, thank you for defining that. Okay. That helps helps me, helps a lot of our listeners to think through that as well. My question now is all right, so we have the positive definition, the negative definition, and what what I'm seeing is a lot of people are leaning more into that negative definition because they're looking at our political leaders. They see them all just trotting out on stage, and I think Marco Rubio literally preaching the gospel. Yeah, you know, and so many are just affirming the name of Jesus and doing these incredible things. And these individuals on on the negative side are thinking, I don't, I don't why wouldn't they want like why are they doing that? Like they're afraid of it. What is causing that fear?

Willy: 21:50

Well, it's a boogeyman. And uh I saw Hillary Clinton say some things the other day about uh, and I don't I I would have to be, I'd butcher the quote if I quoted her, but something she was kind of reacting to that and suggesting that she actually said uh like white men of a certain ideological persuasion. Well, what she's talking about is Christians. That's what she's talking about. And um and so you know what they're using is this as a boogeyman now. Oh, the Christian nationals are taking over. Well, here's what they realize Christian truth is a threat to their ideological system. The whole sexual revolution, the whole Marxist way of viewing the world, which is the oppressed versus the oppressor. So we need to give political power to those who are oppressed. And the politician says that means give it to me, and I trust me to take care of it. And you know, that part gets lost on people. Uh, but that whole Marxist ideological leftist worldview is threatened by Christian truth. Therefore, when they see it rising, uh oh. We got the Secretary of State who's talking about Jesus, we got the vice president talking about he's talking more about Jesus. Uh-oh, you better watch out for those guys. And they will cast it in the worst possible light, and they will say pejard of things, they will look for you know moral flaws or inconsistencies as if to undermine that entire worldview system. But here's the reason they're doing it is because they're threatened by it. And we shouldn't be threatened by it because where Christian thought, Christian conviction, and Christian truth have um taken root in cultures, those cultures have valued human liberties, those cultures have valued civil rights, those cultures think Western civilization have brought more freedom to more people and more different kinds of people than any other government system in the history of the world. Does it mean it's perfect? No. Does it mean we've all that that you're gonna look at some government and go, there it is, the kingdom of God has come on earth as it is in heaven? Well, I I I don't hold that's a post-millennial view. I don't, I don't, I'm more of a premillennialist. No, I I think Jesus is gonna have to come and set that government up. But I want our nation to be as influenced as possible by Christian truth, and yes, you can expect the attacks are gonna come by people who are threatened by it because their power is threatened by it. That's what their power and their ideology is threatened by it.

Dan: 24:12

Well, and one way that I have seen uh, you know, the the individuals who define uh Christian nationalism as a negative thing is they link it together with like a MAGA America. Are those two things the same or are they different?

Willy: 24:23

No, I don't think so. You know, uh uh the MAGA thing is is you know the President Trump's movement. And uh and uh look, there are gonna be things within that political movement you could say, hey, I like they said this, I didn't like they said that, or I like they did this, I didn't like they did that. Um but uh no, I don't think it's one and the same thing. I think what you're seeing, though, is that the MAGA movement uh was was uh uh uh happy to embrace the it it feels like their movement is consistent with a Christian worldview. And that doesn't mean it's one and the same. It doesn't mean there won't won't be inconsistencies, but the MAGA movement is is like, yes, we have more in common with that than not. Now, there are probably people in that movement who wouldn't consider themselves Christians. There are people in that movement, people probably who voted for President Trump, who wouldn't agree with my particular convictions about a number of things. Um the president himself might say things that we would come on and go, hey, you know, we we're praying for our president love and appreciate him, but we disagree with that. By the way, I would probably say that about any president. But uh, you know, there are things he said in that memorial service, which you would go, okay. He even kind of joked about it in a way. Uh I don't think it was a joke, but you know, he talked about hating his enemies. So listen, people freaked out about that. I understand that. Is that a Christian conviction? Absolutely not. Of course not. We don't love our enemies. He even said that. He said, Charlie, you kind of looked up at him, Charlie would be mad at me now. So he was actually kind of acknowledging Charlie's better at this than I am. Um and I don't know if he was trying to be a little self-deprecating there. Uh that's I don't know. You know, the president's gonna say what the president's gonna say. Uh Christian nationalism isn't the MAGA movement, and the MAGA movement isn't Christian nationalism. But what you see is an overlap because there are many things within the MAGA movement that welcome Christian worldview. It are consistent with a Christian worldview and vice versa. But as Christians, we need to be careful. Again, we don't owe our highest allegiance to any political leader, any political party, or any political movement. And here's what that means: it doesn't mean you say one side is equally as bad as the other, because that's not true. Um, but it does mean that, okay, if you see a political side, you cannot be blind to the faults of that side. You cannot turn a deaf ear when that side needs to be corrected. And when you go, hey, that statement, that's not a Christian statement. To say, let's hate our enemies, that's not a Christian statement. I love the president and pray for the president, but that's not a Christian statement. And uh and probably he's had people correct him. I mean, he kind of self-corrected in a way, because he admitted Charlie wouldn't have believed that. Uh, but I don't know what, you know, I don't know what's in his heart and mind. Uh but that's not a Christian statement. So we should have no problem because of some perceived political allegiance saying that statement is not consistent with the teachings of Christ. But at the same time, we should be grateful when there are many leaders who are welcoming Christians and embracing Christian thought as much as possible. And honestly, almost regardless of their motives. Like their motives matter. It matters to God, um, absolutely. But I'm grateful when politicians come our way and say that is true, regardless of what's in their heart. What's in their heart matters to God, and if I knew them personally, we would have a conversation. For instance, I'm grateful, what I mean by that is like when the president stood up at his inauguration address and said, there's only two genders. Okay. First of all, no one in the history of the world would have thought that even needed to be said until 15 minutes ago. But it did need to be said, and it took actually some courage to say it. Now, you could say, why did the president say that? Oh, he was just being politically opportunistic. All right, maybe. Or you could say, no, he really believes that. Or you could say, no, he really believes that as a matter of Christian conviction. It could be any one of the three, right? Personal conviction, Christian conviction, or he doesn't really believe he's just being politically opportunistic. Here's what I would say. For purposes of politics, what does it matter? He's saying what is true. I'm glad he's saying what is true. And I can hope for the best motivation and want to be there to inform the best motivation, but I would rather have him saying that than appointing a man in a dress to a high political office. Okay? That that's how you have to view politics as kind of a means to an end. It's not the end, it's not the kingdom of God on earth, and we don't avoid correcting politicians. But we can be grateful if they're saying what is true is true, regardless of their motives, even. I'm glad they're saying that what is true is in fact true. It's a good thing for a politician to say there are only two genders. It's a good thing, I don't care what his party is, her party, I don't care what their motives are. At that point, it's a good thing to say it. It's the right thing to say it. And I hope they're saying it because they truly believe it.

Dan: 29:12

I love that I asked that question. I enjoyed that one. Um Another thing I want to bring up again, I told you uh X is my entertainment. It's the only social media I really have like out there. I don't even post anything. I just like to read what other people are saying. And let me can I say this on this?

Willy: 29:24

Yeah, sorry. I use X and I don't use a lot of social media. People and we never get to talk about this. I don't like sometimes people send us Facebook messages. My but my assistant has my Facebook page, she gets those, and honestly, I don't, you know, we don't even check it that much. So you need to call the office if you're trying to get an urgent message in. I just don't do it that much. Occasionally, uh and here's what I do, even on X, and maybe this would change at some point. I use it to post things, I don't use it to debate things. I just kind of it's an own personal policy. I've not found now some people do it really well, and I'm glad some people do it because it's fun to lit sometimes watch the give and take. I don't either have the margin or the disposition or the temperament or whatever is necessary to engage in long arguments online. You get baited online. And so sometimes maybe you'll see me post something and somebody will say something. I almost never respond. And it's not because I feel like I'm above it or I'm trying to be rude or unkind. It kind of goes against my nature to not respond to people on the good and bad side. I just don't find it to be that conducive a place for good debates. Because what happens is you go back and forth for everyone else's entertainment and you're trying to score points, and then people jump in and they co-opt you. And sometimes people and so I just that's if people have ever asked why don't you respond to some of that, that's why. I just don't I use it, I post, I don't like to use it for debating.

Dan: 30:46

Yeah, no, and that's a good point because my the best form of entertainment on next is going through the comments and reading back and forth, back and forth. And I do appreciate you saying that.

Willy: 30:54

By the way, do you know what the best form of entertainment is? Is whenever a football team loses on Saturday, particularly if you don't like them, you have a little rivalry with them, and you want to see like a little, you know, you know how we do. This is the way fans are. Uh, you go to their Twitter page that where they post their score. Uh, so like Georgia lost Saturday to Alabama, and you know, I have no horse in that race. But you go to their Twitter page and then you want to read the comments of their fans. Yeah, right. You can enjoy the misery. It it encourages me since we have a very bad football team. Anyway, sorry about that. It is fun reading the area.

Dan: 31:29

No, I do the same things with uh all the cowboy social media because a lot of fans are cowboy fans. I just love going through all that, so that's always fun. Uh, but I did come across another tweet that I wanted to bring up uh to your attention, and I think you saw we talked a little bit about it, but there was a professor, I believe he's at a seminary, a Southern Baptist seminary.

Willy: 31:43

He still is, yeah.

Dan: 31:44

Um, and he tweeted out uh kind of after watching the memor uh the memorial service, um, saying something along the lines of uh you cannot be a Southern Baptist and a Christian nationalist.

Willy: 31:55

I think I Yeah, that was a response to my tweet. You know, if this is a Christian nationalism, sign me up. And one of his responses, and then it got a lot, a lot of people went after it, so I didn't have to do it. Uh but uh I wanted to, kind of. Uh and I d don't know this man personally. I have some books he's written, so you know, I know a personal acrimony. But his response was you can't be a Baptist and a Christian nationalist. Here's the response I would have made. Number one, well, that depends how you define the terms, Professor. You know, that depends how you define the terms. Uh obviously, we've kind of unpacked that here, and you don't get to do that on X. What do you mean by that term? I mean this, I don't mean that. So you don't get to define the terms. What I would say is, no one elected you to define the terms once and for all, okay? Uh when someone has a conversation, you might one of the ways you can always clarify something is what do you mean by that? Help me understand how you define that. So, first of all, saying you can't be a Baptist and a Christian nationalist all comes down to how you define Christian nationalists. Number two, I I would say this. Um, you're not the gatekeeper of what it means to be a Baptist. I thought I I thought that was a little bit snarky, if I can be honest, about saying you can't be a Baptist. First of all, did I didn't did I miss the memo that anybody got elected to determine I've been a Baptist, I'm a fourth generation Baptist. I've been a Southern Baptist pastor for 40 plus years. Uh I like the term Baptist, you know, um, and uh I'm pretty familiar with Baptist theology. I'm not a professor, but uh I've been a pastor for 40 years, so you figure out you know which one qualifies you more. Um but I don't think a professor gets to tell me I'm not a Baptist. That's what I would say. You don't get to tell me I'm not a Baptist. You can have a conversation with me, but you don't get to tell me I'm not a Baptist. Maybe Christian nationalism, as you define it in one way, is is inconsistent with typical Baptist convictions about religious liberty. Okay, maybe, but maybe I'm not defining it that way. And maybe a whole bunch of other people are defining it that way either. Uh so you're not the gatekeeper. You're not the gatekeeper. Uh we don't have a gatekeeper, by the way. I mean, uh we do, but you're not the gatekeeper. Uh number three, um, I would say this. Uh I uh this may sound a little snarky. I don't mean to be snarky, but I work for SBC headquarters. The local church. The local church is SBC headquarters. We got some denominational folks who need to remember that. And um you you you you you don't get to tell uh, you know, you work for us, not the other way around. And um so uh with all due respect, you know, respectfully, um you know, you you don't get to just make that blanket edict. Um obviously, uh if um if you define Christian nationalism one way, you could say it is inconsistent with a Baptist con long-held Baptist conviction of religious liberty. I think it's Article 17 in the Baptist Faith and Message. I would agree with Article 17 of the Baptist Faith and Message. But you don't just get to define the term and then rule me out of bounds, you know, respectfully. Um we have to we have to unpack the term and then unpack what it means. And um, but I think the broader issue is not just arguing over words. I think the broader issue is again, for a whole generation, 20 years or so, we have been given a disposition about cultural political engagement that basically said, neither right nor left, you got to stay out of it and don't talk about hot button issues. That's a summation, but that's basically what was said. They would object to that overgeneralization, but that's that's basically what was said. And to be missiologically effective, we've talked about this before, to be missiologically effective, you can't really be politically engaged. And as I said on this podcast and others, I think Charlie Kirk kind of blew that whole idea out of the water. Because here was a guy who was very politically engaged, and he had a huge gospel impact. And and you can disagree, maybe, oh, he said this, he should have said that. Okay, yeah. It's it's fun to sit in the cheap seats and and talk about somebody who's actually in the arena and oh, I would have said this, there, that instead of that. Look, look at the proof of his life and the proof of his impact. And he was unashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe you disagreed with him on some take he had. Fine, I disagree with takes I've had. Um, but when you look at the impact of his life, I mean, to me that's amazing. So to me, the bigger conversation is are we gonna go back to what we've been told the last 20, 25 years of saying we can't be culturally engaged and we can't be politically active because if we do that, that's inconsistent with our gospel mission. Or are we gonna take the lesson that we've learned, maybe from Charlie Kirk and others, that you know what, we need to be culturally engaged. We we need to be, it's okay to be politically active. Um, and it actually opens gospel opportunities because unfortunately, as we've talked several times on this podcast, it's not that we're becoming more political, it's that politics became more theological. Politics began to define what is a person, what is gender, what is marriage, et cetera, et cetera, what is morality. Okay, you're in my lane now, and they're way over in my lane. So if we have to honk the horn a little bit, um, because you're over here in our lane, and uh we're gonna speak about theological, moral, convictional truth, and um, and unfortunately some people will not like that. But what Charlie Kirk proved is it's gonna open the door to a whole lot of gospel conversations if we have the courage to do it. I think that's behind the tweet, and that's the more substantive conversation. I'm not, you know, uh uh, you know, I'd love to sit down and talk to the professor, but if you're saying that we can't be involved in challenging these ideologies of our day, uh even when they have political implications, I disagree. I beg to disagree, and I don't intend to stop.

Dan: 37:55

I want to double click on something you just said. Um it's uh to have literally to have gospel conversations, essentially. You know, we we've talked about Christian nationalism for the past 20, 30 minutes, and it's a big picture. Like everybody's like, okay, it's a big big thing. But I want to look at that and say everybody's talking about it, everybody's looking at the nation saying, where are we going? Where are we heading? But let's just zero in and what does it mean to be a Christian neighbor in a time like this? I can we someone would say, like, I don't have a platform like Charlie Burke did. I don't have a platform like Pastor Willie Rice does. Um, what would you say to them?

Willy: 38:30

I think it's ha uh first of all, to be a Christian neighbor is to love people in need, to help people in need, to serve people, to see that we are here as stewards of God's grace and love and mercy and to s be servants. To be a Christian neighbor means A, to love my neighbor. Even if my neighbor disagrees with me politically, even if that neighbor is on the other side of every cultural divide I can imagine. No, we don't become hateful, mean, we don't fight with the weapons of the world. That's not what we're saying. Um but we're not loving our neighbor also by, you know, ignoring a conversation that needs to be had or avoiding the truth because we're afraid of offending. I I don't want to go out of my way to be offensive. You know, I've said if if um you know if a couple moved in across the street and they were let's say they were a gay couple and they were I pretending sounds like a pajar of word, but they are imagining that they're married. There is no such thing as a gay marriage, uh, morally and spiritually. But legally there is in America. I understand that. So what are you gonna do? Let's let's take that. What are you gonna do? What do you what does it mean to be a neighbor? You're gonna go over and argue at them? Gonna debate, gonna set up a uh you're gonna Charlie Kirkstyle put up a table and say, prove me wrong? No, that that's for a college campus, that's a certain environment. I'd say walk over and say hello sometime. Ask them what their story is. Uh get to know them. You may find that they're very delightful to talk to. Um you may find you have things in common. And uh yes, they're on a different they may not be Christians. They may have a different moral view than you have, they may have a completely different political view than you have. I think it is to be loving. I think that's the moment to be respectful. How can we help? Can we, hey, if you're out of town, we'll take the garbage up for you. I want to demonstrate the love of Christ. But I think the key thing there, Dan, is at the same time, don't avoid the elephant in the room. You know, at some point, don't be ashamed to say, hey, I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. They look you in the eye and say, Well, can you affirm our lifestyle? Say, no, I can't. I mean, no personal found, not trying to hurt you, but the answer is no. Well, why not? And then they'll be able to give an explanation for why you believe what you believe. Again, to me, that's part of the the effectiveness of Charlie Kirk is that he found that environment where he could do that. And he had these conversations with people. Uh, as I do it with my neighbors, okay, it's probably not setting up a debate table. That's a college campus technique. With your neighbors, it's probably maybe having a barbecue, you know, and sitting down with them, having conversations, um, but not avoiding the elephant in the room. I think the example of Kirk is you don't open the door to more gospel conversations by avoiding those issues. You may open more gospel opportunities for more gospel conversations by dealing with those issues head on, not in a way that is unnecessarily provocative or mean or disputatious. But at the same time, I think what we've done for the last couple of decades is we we feel like we're on our heels. We feel like we're being defensive. We were like, well, I we almost have to apologize. And we've got to turn that around to say, absolutely not. We love you, that's why we're gonna tell you the truth. And if if you hate us because of that, then so be it. I don't want that, but so be it. So I think being a loving neighbor is to love people, to care for people, and yes, to show the character of Christ to them and have those open conversations as the opportunities arise.

Dan: 41:47

And I I asked that question because I want to use it a building block just to kind of launch you into the next little I want to hear what you have to say. You said at the very beginning of the podcast you don't like using the word Christian as the adjective to describe. So when we say Christian neighbor, that's not what I mean. I mean you are a neighbor who is a Christian. And guess what? We are nationalists that are also Christians to promote.

Willy: 42:04

Yeah, we love our if nationalist means I love my country and I want the best for my country, then what's wrong with that term?

Dan: 42:10

Right.

Willy: 42:11

And I care about America. I do. I'm home. This is my home. This is where my kids live. This is my, you know, uh, so I care. And yes, uh, we're neighbor. Uh what I mean by that is I just don't like modifying Christian or weakening that term uh as making it second tier to any other term. The greatest identity for me is that I am a follower of Jesus Christ. That defines everything else. That modifies everything else. Uh I am a Christian. It it I want it to be both the noun and the adjective. You know, I am a Christian Christian. Um and uh then as a Christian, yes, I care about my country. So I'm a patriot, a nationalist. If you want to use that, you think it's a dirty word, we'll just take it and own it. If by the you you you if you want to get mad at us because we love our country, okay. Uh we're neighbors, uh, we're fathers uh and husbands and all the rest. And and there, I suppose, yeah, the Christian informs everything else. As long as you understand, it's not just an adjective that's that's limited, it's the adjective that changes everything. Yes, right. That that, you know, so it's okay in that sense, I guess. But we are Christians first and foremost, last. That's what we are, and we have all these roles that we also bring our faith and our convictions into those roles, they inform those roles, they inspire those roles, and they make they give those roles even greater value and meaning because I am a Christian.

Dan: 43:38

And that's so important to understand that. I think we're about to wrap up, but I just want to have you unpack something else really quick. You don't get to check the Christian at the door when you walk into the political debate. You don't get to check the Christian at the door when you walk into your house or walk into your world. That's right. So we have to make sure that we understand that and our people understand that as well. It's like this is who we are at our core. So it should inform everything else.

Willy: 44:01

Because, Dan, Christian beliefs are not just beliefs we hold, they are beliefs that are true. They are beliefs that are right. It's not just a view about marriage that you and I share. That has nothing to do with it. Who cares what you you and I think? It it's the it's truth. We believe it is truth. That's why we hold that view. And uh we we want to do it without arrogance, without being overly disputatious or contentious, whatever we're argumentative. But at the same time, we don't check it out the door because we know ultimately that holding to the truth, Christian truth, would actually liberate and bless and cause societies to flourish, families to flourish, people to flourish, and would be the breeding ground, the environment that would allow us to share the whole gospel truth about the cross, the resurrection, and the need for repentance and faith. So anyway, yes, we don't check it out the door. We can't check that. Never. No, no, we don't need to be ashamed of it because it's not just our view, it's what's true.

Dan: 45:03

Yeah, that's good. Well, Pastor, I appreciate you just kind of unpacking a few things for us today. Yep. Um, honestly, it's been one of those things I've actually had questions about too, as I watch, you know, people on Twitter just they're they're deconstructing because of Christian nationalism. I'm like, that you just you're defining the term incorrectly, in my opinion.

Willy: 45:19

Well, they're defining the term and they're incorrectly, but they're also using that as an argumentative tool because what they're that that's not really the case.

Dan: 45:26

That's not that.

Willy: 45:27

You know that. That's not really the case. You know why they're deconstructing? Because they want to sleep with their girlfriend. That's it. That's why they're deconstructing. I mean, you know, this the college kid, oh, I'm changing it. Yeah, yeah, it yeah, and you have a girlfriend. Uh or they're they're deconstructing because Christian conviction is challenging their lifestyle in such a way that they can no longer hold to it. And they could either keep their life or they could hold to Christian truth, and so they went, that must not be true. And uh, then there's some theorological reasons underneath that, but that's the reason. And then what they're doing is blaming Christian nationalism. They're blaming it. But it's not Christian nationalism that they're deconstructing from, it's Christian truth that they're deconstructing from. Yeah, it's good.

Dan: 46:04

Well, Pastor, I appreciate it. I know uh you were at Brooklyn Tab last week, yeah.

Willy: 46:08

Yeah, but always great to be in Brooklyn with our friend uh Jim and Carol, and always fun to minister there. It's such a great place, and uh love those people very, very much. And they've been so good to us. So it was a great time to be up there preaching at a conference they had.

Dan: 46:22

Good. And then what's on the docket for Calvary this weekend?

Willy: 46:25

Uh well, it's good, you know, we're continuing our series, First Thessalonians stand firm, and uh it's gonna be a great uh series, a lot, you know, going on every weekend, and uh football team's home on Friday night. Uh so come out, it'd be a fun game to be here Friday night. And uh, but uh Sunday, uh all of our campuses, we're rare to go.

Dan: 46:44

Yeah, man. Beat the tar out of Berkeley last week.

Willy: 46:46

We did. We didn't want to brag about it, but golly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did.

Dan: 46:51

Well, Pastor, I appreciate you. As you guys listen and continue just to tune into the podcast, know that we love you. We're praying for you often. Love to see you at one of our Calvary campuses this Sunday as we continue going through First Thessalonians. We love you, and we'll see you next time.